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Chapters 16-18 (pag...
 
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Chapters 16-18 (pages 149-175)

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We have now reached the big moments between Nurse Ratched and McMurphy where they are battling for control on the ward. Your response is very open-ended and broad this week:
*Who should win the battle for control of the ward, Ratched or McMurphy, and why? What would be the consequences for your pick winning?

*Please point to evidence from earlier in the book in addition to this section. Find pieces that best support what would be lost and/or what would be gained based on past events, actions, and reactions. Think about the full dynamics of the ward: the patients (Chronics, Acutes, Vegetables), the doctors, the nurses, the orderlies. How would what you choose affect all aspects of the ward?

*If it helps, feel free to write this more as a list with explanations and evidence than one big paragraph.
 
*Make sure to reply at least twice--(it could be to two different posts or twice on the same post if someone replies to you). 

*Look through a previous chapter's discussion and reply to at least one person.
Remember that when you reply to a post your task is to help create discussion: ask questions; ask for clarification; offer your different point of view; offer agreement and additional support; play devil's advocate. 

Offer at least a solid paragraph in your replies.

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 I believe that Ms.Ratched should win control over the ward, even though she has been portrayed as evil and cruel throughout the book from the perspective of other characters. Ms. Ratched has managed the facility for years and she understands the severity of each patient's disability or mental state. McMurphy has only been on the ward for about a month which has been quite impactful. He has helped all of the patients stand up for themselves but he only sees them for their lack of courage. He does not see or know about each patient's mental state. His goal is to create a rebellion on the ward for the good of the patientents freetime but he does not have the good intentions of treating the patients. He wants to help them but not in a rehabilitative way. His intentions seemed more focused towards his own needs such as wanting unlimited access to cigarettes so he can gamble them or wanting to change the daily schedule so he can watch baseball. McMurphy likes to push Ms.Ratched’s buttons with his requests and actions, especially when he wants to create havoc on the ward. Ms.Ratched has expressed that she does not like McMurphy and also “she doesn’t care much for his joking about riots and uprisings either,”(111). She understands that McMurphy has been influencing the patients to act out and has said “‘A manipulator can influence the other patients and disrupt them to such an extent that it may take months to get everything running smoothly once more,’” (27). Ms.ratched is trying to keep the peace to ensure all the patients are as comfortable as they can try to be in her care but McMurphy wants to create change which is good for some of the patients but not helpful to help with their mental health. Ms.Ratched to have been portrayed as being an evil woman who crushes the spirits of the patients on the ward but it is understandable that she needs to be strict in order to keep peace on the ward. Her strictness does mean that the patients feel a sense of fear and are cowardice but Ms.Ratched must keep the ward stable. She is trying to improve the mental health of the patients and create order and routine for them so they feel comfortable but McMurphy has created mayhem on the ward. His influence has not all been bad but he is not improving the patients mental state with his outbursts and actions. 

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Protobeing
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I like your take on this question, although I disagree about Ms. Ratched trying to ensure peace- I believe she is trying to make them miserable, maybe even punish them. Like when she limits cigarettes for the patients. 

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I agree with Faith's point, although your view made me reconsider. It almost seems like Ms.Ratched becomes happy with having the patients under her control, such as the loud music she won't allow to turn off and the cigarettes mentioned above.  If this behavior isn't purposeful she may be someone that actually belongs on the ward because it seems like she takes joy from others suffering. 

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If McMurphy wins the battle it would be better for everyone in the ward. McMurphy brings the Chronics and the Acutes together in a way the audience has never seen before. McMurphy makes the patients feel like ordinary people rather than monsters. When Ms. Ratched is trying to tighten her grip on the ward, McMurphy defends the patients, however, he is starting to lose hope, “He’s finally getting cagey” (134). McMurphy is realizing that this is a battle that he may not win and he is becoming less insistent. He would be a better-fitting leader for the ward because the patients like him better than Ms. Ratched and they will willingly listen to him. The Chronics, Acutes, and Vegetables will be less segregated because McMurphy doesn’t think any differently of them. McMurphy also gets along with the doctor very well, so he will work with the doctor, not against him, like Ms. Ratched. McMurphy would be a better overall leader for the ward than Ms. Ratched.

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I agree with you about how McMurphy being a better leader for the ward than the nurse. The nurse isn't taking into consideration the patient's happiness, instead, shes too focused on her job.

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I agree that McMurphy does make the patients feel more human rather than making them feel like monsters. 

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I think it is very interesting that you're looking at this situation from the position of unifying the ward's patients. I would agree that McMurphy definitely brings the patients together, and creates a more comfortable environment where they mostly all feel secure in. My only concern is, yes the patients do adhere to the advice of McMurphy better, but he is also in this institution for a reason. I worry that if McMurphy gains total control of the charge, he may lead the patients to make irresponsible decisions.

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Joined: 2 years ago

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Although I am for Nurse Ratched to win, I like how you talked about the changes that McMurphy has brought to the ward and the effect he has on rallying everyone. I still don't believe they would let a psych patient take over the ward, but replacing her would be a nice change. 

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While im on the other side of this argument, i do see where your coming from, and think you make strong points. Hoe McMurphy definitely helps the patients with their confidence, but the point where you say he gets along with the doctor, that one off puts me a little. Since to me I see that as Murphy using the doctor to get things he wants, not necessarily to work together with him.

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I believe that McMurphy should win the “battle for control” over the ward. Although McMurphy is a character that is odd he has good intentions. McMurphy believes that just because they are patients in the mental health ward, doesn't mean they should have their rights taken away. When he first was brought to the ward it was bleak, sad, and depressing. An example of this is “The Chronics and the Acutes don't generally mingle. Each stays on his own side of the day room the way the black boys want it. (pg18)”. But once he got there he managed to make the ward lively and give all living in the ward something better. If McMurphy wins the patients might be able to start feeling like people again. Some things patients would get if they won are…

  • Two separate rooms in the afternoon, one for the vegetables/older people and one for the Acutes/people who don’t want to have to be quiet all afternoon. This would make life a lot better for the patients but would make life harder for staff because they’d have more room to cover.
  • Gambling, the patients were playing cards for cigarettes but the head nurse stopped it when she realized. Gambling was a way for people to have fun in the ward, although if they gambled too much they’d lose their cigarettes for the week. McMurphy was pretty nice about letting them win them back. 
  • Hope. Throughout the whole story so far everyone is worried about being committed for longer/becoming Chronic. If the patients had more fun, as they did with all the gambling they would be happier. I noticed when McMurphy got there people started actually being happy and having laughter in the ward. 

 

If McMurphy lost some of the things they lost would be…

  • Organization. Since the head nurse likes things done a specific way she keeps everything how it's supposed to be. If McMurphy wins the whole ward might fall apart. McMurphy standing up for what he wanted, the extra day room, has already led to another person standing up for what they wanted. Disrespecting the staff because he believes he has the right to hold on to his own cigarettes.
  • Group Therapy. In group therapy in the past people would be belittled for the things they have done in the past, but they would talk about them. Talking about what has happened is a good way to process it. If it's bad things from their past like the cheating wife or sleeping with underage girls, I feel as though they’ll be less likely to do it again due to the judgment and embarrassment. 

Although I chose McMurphy as who I think the winner should be I still think the nurse should have some power. The way she goes about things is wrong, maybe if she took some of McMurphy's ideas into consideration the techniques of care might work better on the patients. 

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I like the nuance in the last sentence of your post, it adds depth to the possible outcomes of the story. I wonder what it would be like if the patients were suddenly set free. They wouldn't integrate well with the public. Sadly, I don't think it's likely that McMurphy will win, because the government could very well fund this home for research.

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I like how you create possible outcomes for if McMurphy won or did not win and what would happen to the ward with either outcome.

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During this section of the novel, I am beginning to gain some understanding of Nurse Ratched. She is thinking big picture, and she has held a strong authority for such a long time. If she lost, the ward would be overrun by psychiatric patients. I don’t know about you, but as a CNA, that sounds like a nightmare. There are certain restrictions you have to have with psych patients, and Nurse Ratched is very protective over the patients schedules, previously stating that “...the schedule has been set up for a delicately balanced reason that would be thrown into turmoil by the switch of routines”(Kesey 118). The staff members would also be at a disadvantage if McMurphy won, considering the patients are the ones who do all of the housekeeping. If they decided to rebel and go on strike, not only would it be unorganized, they would be left unsupervised while the staff would have to clean, or the ward would be left a mess. 

Nurse Ratched seems to have good intentions. She fought to keep McMurphy on the ward, stating that moving him to the Disturbed, “...would simply be an easy way of passing our problem on to another ward…”(Kesey 156). She knows that McMurphy isn’t a REAL plausible threat to her authority, due to her job position, but we will just have to wait and figure out how this plays out.

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I think is super funny/cool that you are using your personal experience in nursing to analyze some of the questions that we are being asked! Our responses are very much in agreement when it comes to this question because it's pretty obvious. These patients can't run the ward themselves or else it would turn into total chaos. Mrs. Ratched may seem very stern when it comes to the way she organizes her institution, but these ill patients need structure. If they didn't need structure or need to be micromanaged, they wouldn't be in the ward to begin with.

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Your insight form being a CNA is really helpful, or rather really interesting as you connect yourself with Ms. Ratched. How you describe the things she does, and the bigger picture of the ward. And I also like how you end this post, with a final opinion, and your insinuation on whats to come next.

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I believe that Mrs. Ratched should win the battle for control of the ward because she is the woman who is primarily responsible for all the patients. Without Mrs. Ratched, the ward would lose all orderliness and become a free for all to any of the patients staying there. For instance, McMurphy decides that he is going to oppose Mrs. Ratched’s order to do chores and instead watches baseball. The other patients in the ward follow after him as they, “all put down our mops and brooms and scouring rags and we all go pull us chairs up.”(Kesey 144) McMurphy is stubborn and defiant and creates a negative path for all of the patients to follow. The thing is, regardless of the fact that McMurphy has gotten Mrs. Ratched’s goat, patients deep down are still intimidated by her. Especially Chief who tries, “to act like I’m not aware of her (Ratched) back there,”(Kesey 152) while he's cleaning the staff meeting room. But he, “can still feel her standing at the door and drilling into my skull.”(Kessey 152) Over the course of the book, the patients have been reluctant to oppose Mrs. Ratched because of her power. For example, Many of the patients didn’t raise their hands to vote when the doctor initially took a pole for baseball on the TV. This would’ve been a much easier vote without Mrs. Ratched hovering over the meeting. If there was no authority standing in their way whatsoever, McMurphy would have the ward far out of line. They would be having ward carnivals (as proposed earlier in the novel), smoking endless packs of cigarettes, they wouldn’t keep the ward clean, and the ward wouldn’t have order. These patients, especially the chronics and the vegetables who can’t fend for themselves, need a capable woman like Mrs. Ratched to help take care of them. Even if she may go about it in a rude manner. This is why Mrs. Ratched needs to be in control of the ward.

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I completely agree that McMurphy is seeming to be a disruptive and bad role model for these physicatric patients. I agree that these patients could not run this ward without someone of authority. Even though she can be harsh, the ward needs control, just like you stated.

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I think it should be Ms. Ratched. In the eyes of the patients she definitely seems like an evil character. But based on our, or my point of view, she seems like a normal person doing what she can for these patients.. What she thinks would be in their best interest. “There are old men here who couldn’t hear the radio at all if it were lower, old fellows who simply aren't capable of reading…. Old fellows like Materson and Kittling, that music coming from the speaker is all they have.” (106) While this whole argument may be just to spite McMurphy, there is heavy truth in it, it’s a valid point. While McMurphy seems to be doing things for his own gain. He’s clearly there because he chose to be, and not needing any mental help. So it seems to me all he’s trying to do is make the best of while he’s there. Except it’s a bit extreme and coming at the cost of the other patients. While I also think Ms. Ratched isn’t the perfect person nor nurse, from what I remember I do not think she treats the patients horribly. McMurphy gave the patients hope and something to fight for, but I don’t think overthrowing the nurse would be very beneficial for them. Some of the practices in the ward may not be the best, but how is McMurphy doing this going to make things any better?  Might help the patients short term, but long term, what would come of this? If McMurphy “won” and Ms. Ratched “stepped down,” I think a lot would be lost. Much of how things are organized, I think a lot of chaos would be happening. “Now that McMurphy was around to back them up, the guys started letting fly at everything that had ever happened on the ward they didn’t like.” (167) And issues with control, if McMurphy was the “head,” how would these patients get the help they need? What does McMurphy know about this institution? Ms. Ratched has been in power a while, people know that and understand that, “Some way she has regained all of her old power in a few short minutes… she has taken control again and made everyone aware that she’s the force in here to be dealt with.” (153)

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