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Chapters 19-23 (pag...
 
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Chapters 19-23 (pages176-201 finish part 2)

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In this section we see Harding ask McMurphy why he's "let up" on Nurse Ratched after having her "on the ropes". Why did he let up? What is the effective difference between being voluntary vs. committed? *Since many of the men are voluntary what does that do to a reader's perspective concerning the treatments such as EST and lobotomies? *Lastly, how does this change McMurphy's opinion of the men he is on the ward with & has the author given us enough information for us to agree or disagree with his assessment?

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In this section, the reader learns that most of the patients that enter the Ward are by choice, not because they were committed. McMurphy was originally fighting for the freedom of the patients and making it so they could have better lives. Finding out that they chose this completely alters his opinion and why he’s fighting. Why should he fight for something that someone else chooses to do to themselves? There is no purpose in his behavior if the only one getting punished is him. He is merely entertainment for the patients. As the reader starts the book, lobotomies and ESTs are seen as an evil treatment for patients if they don’t have a choice in the matter, but if they know what is happening and they have the ability to say no to the treatment, it’s not as bad as it sounds. Despite the consequences of the treatment these men are still itching to get it done to them. McMurphy believes the men of the Ward have “conned him,” (192) because they never told him that they wanted to be there, matter of fact, they acted as if they hated it there. In return, McMurphy stood up to bat for them and fell for their lies. Personally, I think this is just the start of things getting revealed, there has to be much more to the story than just that. There is no way that all of them chose to be there; it could be some form of brainwashing that Ratched put them under. Otherwise, everything McMurphy was fighting for had been a waste of time. 

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I never thought about the possibility of brainwashing until you mentioned it. But it is definitely something to be considered. Early in the novel when McMurphy first tried to open the patient's eyes to the wickedness of the Nurse, they broke down with emotions that seemed too real to be faked. They talked about her being a big bad wolf and how her power in control made them tiny. Now, suddenly everything is for a great cause and the nurse is just trying to help them. It doesn't make sense. Maybe it was a huge con all along and they were just looking to see McMurphy run himself into the dirt because of his arrogant attitude. But it just seems like there is something bigger than that.

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I agree with how you stated that McMurphy's rebellion was a source of entertainment for the ward. They went so long having dull and repetitive days, until McMurphy came and changed things up for them. He gave them something to distract them from their prolonged stays. I like that observation you made. Good job F--!

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I agree with your interpretation a lot, it seems as though McMurphy trying to help them was a sort of entertainment for them as you said. But I think they really do have the option to leave, they just don't because they feel as though its easier to stay than go. 

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McMurphy finally decides to let up on Mrs. Ratched because he learns the meaning of being committed. Committed patients can’t get better or aren’t seeking help to get better, so they’re trapped in the ward for the time being. McMurphy isn’t going to lead the rebellion anymore because he doesn’t want to, “bug her (Mrs. Ratched) into adding another year or so to my sentence.”(Kesey 193) Voluntary patients in the ward choose to accept treatment and rules because they are looking to improve their mental health. Since we’ve learned that most of the patients on the ward are voluntary, it gives us a positive perspective on the treatments. The patients willingly accept the treatments and compare EST to, “a free trip to the moon.”(Kesey 189) Harding says that, “Everything done here is for the patient's good.”(Kesey 189) which now gives the treatments a positive connotation. Finding out all of this information leaves McMurphy appalled, and he can’t understand why all of the voluntary patients choose to stay. McMurphy thinks that the patients, “oughta be out running around in a convertible, bird-dogging girls.”(Kesey 195) He thinks that they’re crazy for staying considering that they complain about the ward and the Nurse all the time.

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Maverick, I love your perspective on the EST, I also wrote about how McMurphy is confused of why they all stay and put up with the harmful treatment, and go through all of it voluntarily. It's such a weird thing to have someone compare being shocked to a "free trip to the moon". Interesting!! Good Job.

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I like how you mention the patient's perspectives on the treatments they're given. The fact that the voluntary patients chose to stay rather than leave shows that they don't think the facility is too bad. 

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I like how you mention the contrast of how the patients see the treatments they are given compared to McMurphy's persepctive on the treatments. 

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McMurphy “lets up” on Nurse Ratched because he has learned in these chapters why all of the patients are on the wards. He realized that the “freedom” he was fighting for, was not really freedom as the patients were committed and not sentenced there like he was. He realized that they aren’t looking to get better or get more freedom, they were just looking for a place to live until the end of their lives. He also finds out that many of the patients voluntarily go through electroshock therapy, saying that it helps to cure them, saying it is “...completely painless”(Kesey 190). McMurphy begins to gain a seeming sense of pity towards the others on the ward. He sees that they are desperate for help, but knows that they won't go anywhere even if 'cured'.

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I'm confused now about this section of the novel LOL. I was getting the inclination that because the patients were voluntary... they actually were trying to get better and be released. I figured since they thought the treatment was beneficial, they were doing it to get better but just thought they hadn't improved enough yet.

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I also agree that the patients will not be able to find the courage to leave the ward even if they are "cured". They have been trapped for so long and are comfortable with the set rules and lack of freedom they have. Even if they are being mistreated, they do not have the courage to leave.

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This post restates a lot of this section in the book, but you don't go too in depth about your opinion of how we see this, or what the reader takes from this. What did you take from this section? What was your understanding or perspective once you got to this part showing that most patients were there voluntarily? 

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In this chapter, McMurphy learns that all the patients on the ward are voluntary, there by choice, and not committed like he is. This causes him to let up because the more pushback he gives to Mrs.Ratched the longer the stay he has at the ward. This also leads to him losing respect for the others on the ward which is shown when he states, "Tell me why you gripe, you bitch for weeks on end about how you can't stand this place, can't stand the nurse or anything about her, and all the time you ain't been committed."(pg 195). He realizes that the people in the ward could leave whenever they wanted, all of the medical procedures like lobotomies and EST that he thought the others were being forced to do he realized they weren't, they could've just left. He was fighting to make others' lives better on the ward so they could make the best out of what their options were, but the realization of the others being able to leave, them choosing to put themselves through the "treatment" and not leave made him lose respect and prioritize himself. 

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In saying this I believe McMurphy is right, the patients just think it's easier to stay than leave. They are taking the easier way out. If they think the hospital is that bad then they would've left and gone out on their own but every day the choice to do the opposite. They choose to sit through all of the therapy meetings they have, where they have to say their darkest secrets, as well as choose to stay even though they've seen what the medical procedures have done to others there. It's on them to take their lives into control not McMurphy. 

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Your post and comment I find really in depth, you are voicing thoughts that had been in the back of my head. You stated McMurphys realization on the voluntary patients, and I like how you mention that he decides to prioritize himself after finding this out- he was trying to help people who put themselves in this situation in the first place.

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 In this section we see Harding ask McMurphy why he's "let up" on Nurse Ratched after having her "on the ropes". Why did he let up? What is the effective difference between being voluntary vs. committed? *Since many of the men are voluntary, what does that do to a reader's perspective concerning the treatments such as EST and lobotomies? *Lastly, how does this change McMurphy's opinion of the men he is on the ward with & has the author given us enough information for us to agree or disagree with his assessment?

 

McMurphy has let up on harassing Ms.Ratched because he’s beginning to understand the conditions of the patients on the ward and that she must handle the patients with a certain manner. He understands now that the men on the ward do need some extra help and treatment. McMurphy knows that the men on the ward are not mentally stable and that he needs to quiet his wants because they are not greater than the actual needs the patients on the ward have to receive. His want to watch tv at a certain time or to change the cleaning schedule is of lesser importance than keeping the patience stable and comfortable with a regulated schedule. He wanted to create change before but now he is realizing that his change will affect the stability of the ward. McMurphy’s opinion of the men has changed somewhat because he’s realizing that the men on the ward are truly not mentally stable. His observations and interactions have led him to see that he is an outsider compared to the men on the ward. He does not want to spend the rest of his days in a mental facility because that is not the type of treatment he needs. He is scared that if he stays any longer that he may end up mentally insane himself. He knows he is not like the other men.

The reader's perspective on the topic of EST and lobotomies does change when we understand that most of the men voluntarily joined the hospital facility because the men chose to be taken in the facility care. The men who voluntarily entered the facility gave their permission to have procedures done on them when they joined the ward. They understood that the procedures used would be with good intent and to help heal them. The idea of EST and lobotomies being used as treatment seems alright because the reader knows that the men are looking to find relief. The procedures are more of a treatment than a punishment for the men who entered the ward voluntarily. 

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It’s a high probability that patients who are there voluntarily, have an easier way or time to leave the ward, “recovered” or not. And we see that McMurphy was fighting for himself (and the patients) for a better time in the ward, to make it more enjoyable. Because he thinks they are all there or mostly all of them were there because they were committed. But once he learns they were voluntary, his outlook changes. Why are they so pitiful or hopeless, when they themselves chose to be there? Our opinion and perspective definitely changes as we now know most of the patients were voluntary, and could probably get released relatively easily. However, they are choosing to stay, despite their complaints - especially about shock therapy. It’s mostly just a bit mind boggling to us all, including McMurphy. If these patients hate staying here, complain, and can't stand it, then why are they staying here? “‘Tell me why. You gripe, you bitch for weeks on end about how you can't stand this place, can’t stand the nurse or anything about her, and all this time you ain’t committed…” (195)

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